"Ascension" Strategy

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 3:06 pm

So, yeah. I just transmogrified into an Elemental (from a Psion). I like Elementals, so far (through this new experience and on paper). I think I like them best because they have no sidekick powers at all (but that's probably going to be a separate thread).

Anyway, I got to thinking about "ascension" or whatever it'll be called when it shows up (retconning? I'll drop the air quotes thing now) and I imagine ascension will include some perming of skills. So my question to you all is:

Assuming the skills remain as they are, in what order would you make them permanent? And why?

(If this has been discussed in a thread somewhere, please point me to it. I can't find it. My search skills are awful, apparently.)

Satan · Post by **Satan** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:23 pm

I think the first thing I'd do is perm the psion skill meditation, which gives you +30 mins a day. And then I'd probably get the gadgeteer skill advanced martial arts (I think) which increases your offensive power based on your level :/ And then lifeblood for the obviously kickass healing. And after that it'd probably just be whatever was next.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:02 pm

You can't pass up Heroic Efficiency. And then Meditation, probably. After that, probably one of the lower level attack spells or First Aid.

Satan · Post by **Satan** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:12 pm

Oh, right, heroic efficiency... Wasn't thinking about that one, only class... Wonder if it'll even be permable.

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:34 pm

yeah, I'm assuming you won't be able to perm heroic efficiency or passable pilot.

I'm also assuming that, at some point, you'll lose your computers (or else the supercomputer building skill will quickly become obsolete).

Post by **Ryme** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:47 pm

Lxndr wrote:yeah, I'm assuming you won't be able to perm heroic efficiency or passable pilot.

I'm also assuming that, at some point, you'll lose your computers (or else the supercomputer building skill will quickly become obsolete).

Nothing is set in stone until I do it, but this would be my inclination for all of these points.

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:40 pm

to use KoL as a reference:

I imagine computers are, uh, meat maids. they'd disappear when you ascend. I really want to keep the software, but I think it should also disappear (as much as it pains me to say)
this way, the skill to build positronic supercomputers is fully justified as a skill to keep

(I like this)

I imagine heroic efficiency an Organ of Steel. It also disappears when you ascend.

(I like this)ld

I imagine Passable Pilot as like CLEESH. People might not bother to perm it, but it can be permed. (At least, I don't see any reason to say "no" to making this permanent, but there's a "why")

-------

But we digress. Let's pretend what I set up above is what Ryme goes with.
Anyway, I <3 passive skills. In KoL I'm on a multi-year trek to perm every passive skill I can get (multi-year because I may be a good player, but I'm not optimal or speedy). In TH I'd probably go like this:

* Psion: Meditation (extra time to adventure, hells yeah):

* Elemental: Proper Hydration (no more having to buy and wear diving gear)
* Naturalist: Echolocation (item drop, yay)
* Gadgeteer: Supercomputer skills (I don't usually like building things, but you pretty much need a computer for a quest or two, don't you? so I'd probably get this one, so I can build a better computer)

(I would do those 4 first to give myself a taste of each class, fully-ascended)

After those, these tempt me:
* Elemental: The Fire Within (more PP, yes)
* Gadgeteer: Advanced & Basic Martial Arts, Battle Armor (combat advantage, defense advantage)
* Psion: Premonition (yay initiative)
* Naturalist: Starfish Regeneration (more hp per turn, yay)

That covers all the passives that would help the average player ('improved tinkering' and 'electronic understanding' are too class specific, I'd wait until I had a few more class skills permed - though I'd take EU over IT, since EU would help me if someone gave me a hologram, which means I'd probably go Psion for a while, and then after that Gadgeteer for a while)

Non-passives that draw me:
* Lifeblood Manipulation

hm. nothing else jumps out at me after browsing the wiki. but I imagine I'll find more skills I like after my initial "loop" which I think, barring more interesting passives getting rolled out in the "not implemented" areas, will be my actual initial plan. Probably in that order. Meditation/Hydration/Echolocation/Supercomputer.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:01 pm

Really? I don't see it the same way, by far. It doesn't make much sense that software disappears with your computer, especially given the advent of cloud computing coming soon.

And...really? Heroic Efficiency is like Organ? I think that's waaaay too far drawn out. Heroic Efficiency is WAY more awesome than Organ. It affects almost everything you do, where as Organ might be useless on, say, a booze run (then again, there's Liver, but nonetheless). I can't see why HE shouldn't be permed. There's no other non-donation way to speed up runs more. Then again, we have 0 clue of how perming skills will work, though I guess it's a safe assumption that it'll be something like KoL's.

Post by **Ryme** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:04 pm

On a more fundamental level, anything that comes out of a quest probably wouldn't be permed, because then you don't have that reward in future quests.

The sidekick understudy may be an exception to this, though, because there's enough other stuff going on in that quest, and it needed a decent narrative explanation for how you get a sidekick in the first place.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:10 pm

I don't know if I really feel like it's a reward if it's taken away (especially something as awesome as that) and then restored back. I think that if you don't let people perm it, they'll get slightly more discouraged from retconscenioning (new words!).

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:16 pm

It doesn't make sense, realistically, for software to disappear from your computers. But I think it makes sense, gameplay-wise, for software to disappear from your computers. That Decryptonomicon is in the store for a reason, and in that one quest where you have to hunt for codes you'll get more software (assuming I'm remembering that part of the game right, it was a long time ago, and one brain surgery happened in between)...

Granted, I'd be happy if software stayed. But I'd not be surprised if it vanished.

HE is definitely more awesome than Organ (assume NS11 here, so no silly extra quest to get it; if we assume NS13's Organ, it's even more absurdly awesome). But it fills the same role as it did in NS11 - a reward from a quest that you don't get to perm, that was considered important for a good long time (less now that you have to waste additional adventures to get your Organ of Steel). Heck, that Organ was the reason behind the strategy of "teet-dropping" which has since been negated as a strat over there.

But, either way, metaphors aside, I support excluding HE from the "let's make it permanent" system. I would NOT support excluding Passable Pilot (I wouldn't fight for including it, but I wouldn't support excluding it). I truly want to see HE as something you need to struggle through the first few levels to "win" again. I'd be more likely to "retconscenion" if this was the case.

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:18 pm

People got over losing Liver of Steel, they'll get over Heroic Efficiency. Especially since it's the level 4 quest.

Besides, back in my day, we didn't even have Heroic Efficiency! Our turns took five minutes and we liked it!

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:29 pm

Cristiona wrote:People got over losing Liver of Steel, they'll get over Heroic Efficiency. Especially since it's the level 4 quest.

Besides, back in my day, we didn't even have Heroic Efficiency! Our turns took five minutes and we liked it!

Exactly!

Post by **Ryme** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:34 pm

also "makes sense" may depend a lot upon the narrative behind retcon. There's many different ways to start over, only some of which indicate your computer should continue to exist at all, let alone the software on it.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:34 pm

So...ascending shouldn't help later ascensions besides skills? I find this very disheartening. Skills as a whole aren't really as effective as opposed to KoL's skills, where something like Pastamancery would cut down your run by maybe a day. Maybe less, but it was definitely dramatic. Here, no skills besides HE really really cut down on day count. Meditation gives...what, 6-10 turns? Math is fuzzy.

Lxndr wrote:But it fills the same role as it did in NS11 - a reward from a quest that you don't get to perm

Can't say I agree with this assertion. You're only making it an unpermable skill because you WANT it to be that way. KoL designs shouldn't be followed 100% because this isn't KoL.

I don't know if I'd personally be as enamored with ascending without HE to perm. It's like a slice of heaven taken away each run. That would personally push me to just stay as a Psion forever. It's not like I'm really missing much from the other classes. (Except maybe Gadgeteer skills? They're pretty nice.)

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:41 pm

Not to be snide, but the quests aren't done, and skills aren't done. Isn't it just a little early to say the whole thing is gonna suck if you can't perm Heroic Efficiency?

Post by **Ryme** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:42 pm

MagiNinjA wrote:I don't know if I'd personally be as enamored with ascending without HE to perm.

It would really ruin your ascension experience if you had to wait three levels and one quest to get that back? I'm pretty sure that's gonna be day1 stuff, maybe day 2 tops.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:44 pm

Well, maybe not to that effect, but I guess I find it odd that if you're only going without it for a couple levels, why not be able to perm it and not deal with it later? That quest could be used as another reward vector too.

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:54 pm

I find it odd that I can't wear the Badass Belt for a few levels at the start of every run on KoL. What kind of shit reward is that?

Seriously, man. You're focusing like a laser on a tiny, mostly insignificant portion of something that's barely even been planned. Please check location of cart and horse.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:54 pm

I don't get why we're making comparisons to KoL. Especially with fairly insignificant items.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:58 pm

Okay, that was sort of an idiotic looking response. The bigger point I was trying to make this whole time is that making everything analogous to KoL is not the greatest idea in the world.

Olaf · Post by **Olaf** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:15 pm

We should be looking above and beyond KoL.

We're SUPERHEROES!

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:34 pm

I don't understand why you're obsessing over 30 seconds/turn for the first 4 levels of a run. It's honestly such a big thing that you won't be willing to retcon? Seriously? It's a quest reward. It should be removed when you start over. Just like every other quest reward (I'm including the permkick here, too). Quest rewards are powerful; they shouldn't be kept when you start over. They either need to be locked away (items), or removed (skills and intangibles).

More and more, this is coming across as foot stamping and whining "But I want shoooooooooort turns."

Especially since you haven't really articulated any actual reason to keep the skill except that you want short turns from the get-go. Sure, it's the single biggest boost to play time in the game, but that's not really a good reason, as it's just a rephrasing of "I want". As you said earlier, "You're only making it [a permable] skill because you WANT it to be that way."

In fact, your burning desire is the exact reason why it shouldn't be: it's the single most powerful duration-reducing thing in the game. It's unbalancing. The early levels go by in the blink of an eye as is, they do not need to be sped up in the slightest. Indeed, the single biggest complaint from new players isn't that they don't have enough turns; it's that they don't have enough chips. Making turns shorter will only exacerbate this problem.

Level requirements in games are artificial constructs that serve two purposes: they increase the difficulty, and they keep people from being too powerful at low levels (which is similar). The Xentrium Axe is the most powerful melee weapon in the game. It has a level requirement of 14 because a 150 power is simply too much to have at a low level. A single hit from it will utterly destroy most any monster before level 10 or so. That's just too much, and so it has a high requirement.

Finally, look at the big boys of TH: the Items of the Month. Almost all of them scale to some extent. The Cape, the Aegis, the Fighting Club, the Letter Shirt, the GigaGuy Cannon... they all explicitly scale to your level. Almost every sidekick scales (some more than others), the new combat items all scale too. Even Rod's kit scales on the substantial stats boosts (% increases are scaling). They all scale to keep them useful at high levels (10% REF is pretty huge for me), and to keep them from being totally broken at low levels.

This is all in the name of balance. Likewise, the single most powerful boost in this area needs to be restricted to maintain balance. A 10% reduction in turn time is just too powerful at level 1.

Edit: Some snark removed; some retained.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:46 pm

I'll agree with this, however, it feels like a shortcoming without something like that to perm.

Jesus · Post by **Jesus** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:54 pm

Aura: Keen Observation first
Gaining XP and having the chips to actually gain levels is a major hurdle for advancement to further quests.

The Fire Within
Not just for KO; every class has skills you'd want to use a lot, and 40 PP is a lot early on.

Proper Hydration
More for the PP benefit to maximize Fire Within, but saving on diving gear wouldn't hurt either.

Echolocation
Getting the right items at the right time would speed up a few quests, and being passive makes it a priority.

Firestorm / Psionic Blast
A big no-miss damage spell to rip apart bosses. Nothing fancy here.

Then you worry about defenses and survivability with Battle Armor, Basic Martial Arts, Starfish Regeneration... I'm not sure where to put Meditation, because I'm unconvinced that an extra 6-7 turns per day will be as critical as the other things.

Strlikecrazy · Post by **Strlikecrazy** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:54 am

I think the skills Jesus has selected and the passives Lxndr posted would be the first skills I'd go for.

Regarding the perming of Heroic Efficiency, Cristiona covered it nicely.

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:55 am

MagiNinjA wrote:I'll agree with this, however, it feels like a shortcoming without something like that to perm.

I think "30 extra minutes a day" could be reasonably construed as "something LIKE that" to perm. It extends how many turns you'd start with at level 1, which functionally is what HE would do, no? Sure, HE also makes the benefits from coffee and sugar effectively larger, but Meditation gives that first benefit.

Hannahmaus · Post by **Hannahmaus** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:07 am

MagiNinjA wrote:It's like a slice of heaven taken away each run.

I enjoyed that, it's the most poetic thing I've ever heard about a potential future disadvantage in a game.

I was surprised no one mentioned MD, although I'll admit I've never played anything but Gadgeteer and know little of the other classes and their skills and which of our skills they wish they had. In KoL, Phat Loot is often the 1st or 2nd skill permed (or was back in my day). Having said that I think KoL has more quests where drop rate makes a huge difference.

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:12 am

MD is tempting. But Echolocation (all passive, all the time) is way more tempting, at least for me. Kind of like I'm perming mad looting skills in KoL, but phat loot is years away, if I ever decide to perm it.

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:18 pm

I've thought about this HE thing for a bit and there are some problems.

First off, is it unbalanced to have it permable? I've been both told (in this thread) that perming it is overpowering AND that since it's achieved at level 4, I can wait a bit and it shouldn't have much effect. Contradictions.

On a tangent, is it really a bad idea to make the user at least feel empowered? If, in fact, it's not an optimal first choice (because it can be achieved at such a low level), is there real harm in allowing it to be permed? I see more benefits, not just because you have it from the start. It gives the user a choice.

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:33 pm

MagiNinjA wrote:First off, is it unbalanced to have it permable? I've been both told (in this thread) that perming it is overpowering AND that since it's achieved at level 4, I can wait a bit and it shouldn't have much effect. Contradictions.

Not in the slightest. Heroic Efficiency is pretty sweet. It's too powerful at level 1, but reasonable at level 4. Level 4 isn't long to wait for such a powerful effect. The Boomstick is pretty powerful too. Too powerful for level 1, but it's not too bad to wait until level 3 to use it. And, again, speeding up turns at level 1 will only make the existing bottleneck (chips) worse.

In the glory days of LTSynergy on KoL (yeah, yeah), the bottleneck was stats. Surviving +100 ML wasn't a problem if you were prepared and skilled. You could survive monsters that could two-hit kill you. You could survive it for an entire run. But if your off-stats weren't 104, you weren't gonna kill the NS. Dealing damage is -time, off stats are chips. Tripling the damage you did wasn't going to help you with the off-stats. If anything, it meant you'd find ways to pile on even more ML, and find yourself getting into the same situation even faster ("It took me 10 less turns to get stuck without enough muscle!").

On a tangent, is it really a bad idea to make the user at least feel empowered?

Is it a bad idea to unbalance the early game? Yes. Yes it is. Is it a bad idea if that "empowerment" causes players even more frustration when they can't afford to level? Yes. Yes it is. Know what else would make them feel empowered? If the Fighting Club didn't scale, and was just a flat +100 offense. RAWR!

If, in fact, it's not an optimal first choice (because it can be achieved at such a low level), is there real harm in allowing it to be permed?

Yes, there is. I've now written two posts on just that topic.

I see more benefits, not just because you have it from the start. It gives the user a choice.

What benefits? The only benefit you've listed is that it makes turns take less time, which isn't a benefit because you can't afford to buy levels as is. What choice does it give players? The option of grinding for chips in the dumpster vs grinding for chips in the Neighboring and Neighborly Neighborhood?

Olaf · Post by **Olaf** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:52 pm

Who's to say having any skills 'permable' is a good idea?
Just throwing that out there.

Lxndr · Post by **Lxndr** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:07 pm

I've never tried to argue that HE is 'unbalanced' at the early levels. If anything I said earlier came across that way (or if I actually said that) I apologize.

I want to avoid what I call "the Stamina Effect". In City of Heroes, there's a skill called Stamina. I hate this skill. It is clearly a very "optimal" choice, such that the mechanics monkeys always throw Stamina into their characters. It's one of those no-brainer powers. As someone who avoids Stamina in City of Heroes, I get to be the whipping boy of more than half the forum goers, and get additional sneerage when teaming in the game. If HE becomes available to make permanent, it falls into the same trap. It is the "little slice of heaven" - it quickly becomes the #1. The overwhelming desire for this power to be made available shows how massively people want it.

Every single other skill in the game doesn't affect people that way. That's what I like about this game - no other skill is an obvious, overwhelming must have (also one of the things I like about KoL - and yes, I'll keep comparing to KoL, at least until I can find any other game with a similar ascend-permskill-ascend mechanism, and if there is one, point me to it). That's why I started this thread, because there seem to be many paths people might want to take. An individual might have a "yes, I want this skill" preference, but that's only a one-person trend. Hell, if any of the unimplemented class skills start looking to slip into the Stamina Effect I'd probably argue against them, too.

So, yeah, whether or not it's unbalancing (and people in here who know a lot more about the gameplay than I do have answered this), it comes SO EARLY IN THE GAME does it really matter that you have to wait all the way until level 4, or whatever level gives it? In my opinion, it doesn't matter, waiting does not hurt. Furthermore, leaving it out of the running stops the Stamina Effect. And I hate the Stamina Effect. Hell, we're already seeing HE displaying the Stamina Effect in this thread, with the tangent on whether or not HE should be made permanent, which is only vaguely touching on what the thread is supposed to be about.

Jesus · Post by **Jesus** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:14 pm

Hannahmaus wrote:I was surprised no one mentioned MD...

Echolocation bumps items by a similar percentage for no cost.
Quests in TH are more about encounters than item drops, so item drops are less critical.

You don't need an item drop to reach the Demiurge or Mind Bender or Troutmaster or... But to get by them you will need sure, big damage. Or if you can get enough XP an chips, you can buy enough levels to make them cake. Which is why I'd prioritize KO / Firestorm / Psionic Blast.

But if you've got an account you want to use to farm, MD is a no-brainer. I just don't think it has the potential to add as much speed as other skills. At least, not with how quests are currently done.

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:24 pm

Olaf wrote:Who's to say having any skills 'permable' is a good idea?

Actually, most games take an all-or-nothing approach. You can either unlock a new difficulty and start over with nothing, or you can do a new game+, where you keep everything (or almost everything). The one-at-a-time nature of KoL's skill perming is rather uncommon. It's really a method to continually lengthen replayability, as it sets an outrageously high bar for "completion". Most games usually only need to be played twice to completely beat them (Ace Combat series being an amusing exception as Hard unlocks Expert, which unlocks Ace; furthermore, in AC:Zero, there were several unlockables that required a minimum of 3 play-throughs), while KoL requires well over 100 playthroughs to get everything. Following the standard video game model just isn't going to work with something like TH, because we won't be doing multiple games, thus the existing game needs to be extended as much as possible, hence skill perming.

And look at Castlevania. Even on a new game+ playthrough, you don't get to keep your most powerful abilities like double-jump.

Also, apologies to Lxndr for continuing the mild derail. For what it's worth, my list would largely mirror Jesus's.

Satan · Post by **Satan** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:29 am

@castlevania comment, that's because double jump and such aren't so much skills as abilities which are necessary to progress the plot (and, of course, find sekrits). Anyways, as to the bottleneck comment, I don't think that applies here... For one reason only. Time != turns. I'm assuming here, and I may be wrong, that our runs are going to be based on time taken, instead of turns played. You get more stuff in less time. -30 seconds per turn for the first few levels would really add up, and the player experiences no difference between what they actually do to get things... I don't see how they get the chips faster, since the same number of turns passes. It's just a different (less) amount of time. They end up with an extra 20 or so adventures that they wouldn't have gotten if they hadn't had the skill. They'd have a significant cut down in time passed for the run, because they could simply do the same amount of things with a lesser amount of time passing. On the other hand, if you don't care about the speed game, or you get unlucky, you've got 20 more adventures or so just to go do something. Personally, I don't think it'd hurt to make it permable, but I'm not sure it's too helpful, either. Then again, some skills are pretty useless in most situations as well, so I can't see an argument against it either, or it's helpful but not game-breaking. And it really isn't.

the SUPERnaturalist · Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:18 pm

creative idea that is relevant:

when you transmog you get a new talisman depending on class
every time you transmog from a class with the new talisman in your possession,
for every say 15 levels you've reached, you get +1 charge on the talisman
example:
Maelstrom in a bottle
+1% spell damage
+1 spell damage
+1 intellect
+1% intellect
+1% chance for spell critical (spell does extra damage?)

Velociraptor tooth
+1 damage
+1 to offensive rating
naturalist combat maneuvers do extra damage
+1 strength
+1 max hp
+1 hp regeneration

etc. etc.

with the talisman maxing out at 15 or 20
something like this would make "completion" require a few years, but not nearly as long as kol

having a talisman with charge X could unlock a "hardcore X" kind of mode, where you have to stick with a class and talisman until you beat some sorta endgame boss, but enemies are resistant to you. (for example if you have a velociraptor tooth naturalist enemies gain Xdefensive rating, Xhp, Xdodge, Xetc., ), so that every time you gain a charge the next charge level becomes harder to get

it wouldn't hurt to toss in a few imported concentrated coffee bean solutions or some ubercandy that rand gets after you beat down the mick, but that might be pushing it..

MagiNinjA · Post by **MagiNinjA** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:23 pm

What about negative bonuses?

Cristiona · Post by **Cristiona** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:57 pm

15 levels of starter talismans? That's 60 items, of which you'll never have more than one. And, yeah, the negatives would be crippling for a level 1 character.

Olaf · Post by **Olaf** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:02 pm

I don't think he means 60 new talismans. Only 4. And some kind of hidden counter that increases their stats.

I think the basic idea here is interesting.