SYSTEM MESSAGE: Okay, so now begins the next installment of Tea Time with Ryme, an open discussion between the players and Ryme -- that's me!
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Ryme: I know I've got a few questions the forums, but I'm going to start by rehashing today's theme and taking questions from the live audience first.
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Ryme: This one may be a little more open discussion and a little less Q&A, as I'm not sure I've got a lot of answers yet. Still formulating the questions.
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Ryme: Main theme for tonight is Retcon. How's it shaping up? Where are the pain points? What's going well, what's frustrating or disappointing?
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Ryme: And how would people feel about various possible fixes if we adjust things at the 6-month mark?
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PenguinPyro: Will there be a way to browse the mall without looking for a specific item?
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Ryme: PPyro: I don't know. I think there's a bit of a reason not to just feed a list of all items to new players, among other things.
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Ryme: You can of course browse through stores.
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PenguinPyro: Okay.
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Ryme: Is that a feature you'd actually use? And if so, in what way?
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PenguinPyro: Ryme, I would use it.
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PenguinPyro: If I can comment on pain points, I believe the randomness of the level 3 and level 5 quests can be annoying at times.
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PenguinPyro: I once went through 15 capos and got 15 "you search but find nothing useful" messages.
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Harry Dresden: That can always be helped with +item buffs or gear, though.
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Ryme: Was that before or after the revamp, Pyro?
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PenguinPyro: After the level 5 revamp.
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Jaolen: even with echolocation + metal detector + flea market trader, it can take that long, yeah
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PenguinPyro: Although that particular instance may have been just extremely crappy luck.
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Ryme: ah, "can" is a funny phrase. If there's randomness any really bad string of luck can happen.
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Harry Dresden: I've had a few runs where it took a few hours, but it usually drops in a decent amount of time.
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PenguinPyro: Well, it would be nice if the chance of getting a key went up slightly after every capo.
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Ryme: But noted. I'd thought I'd helped streamline that one at least a bit. Didn't expect it'd still be a pain point.
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Ryme: And that may be a fair fix.
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Ryme: What's the beef with level 3, then? Mostly the effects of the mist?
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PenguinPyro: The beef is also randomness.
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PenguinPyro: And to some extent, as some guy on the forums noted, the need to re-enter the maze after doing anything.
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Ryme: they're all random. I guess you mean "the extent to which bad luck can drag out"?
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PenguinPyro: Yeah.
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Ryme: Also noted, then.
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Ryme: The thing about the maze is, before anything else existed, I knew the "obstacle" for that quest was going to be needing to leave and come back.
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Ryme: So I do get some of the objection about why leaving for X doesn't make sense, but any fix to the maze quest flow in that respect is going to still force characters to leave the maze. Just maybe for different reasons.
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Ryme: I'm still kind of surprised how strongly some people react, though. Later quests, which maybe just have a "30% odds of getting the noncombat to advance the quest" don't bother people if it's in a zone. But leaving and needing to re-enter, with the same odds, strikes some people as being much more unfair.
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Ryme: Anyway, I'm the only one talking about it, so I guess I'll move on.
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Ryme: What else?
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Jaolen: a big pain point for me is getting into no-pulls runs - it's super beneficial to have like ~4 gold foils to start those runs (1200 chips + a foil poncho), but you need to lead in to get it
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Jaolen: as a result, i just don't do no-pulls runs.
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Ryme: I can see how the foil helps, but I'm kind of curious how much of an actual statistical difference it would make on daycount?
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Ryme: I certainly understand if it feels less fun, but I'm curious if it really taints a whole run on a performance level?
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Ryme: Or maybe it doesn't matter if it's only X turns difference, if it just feels frustrating the entire time?
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Harry Dresden: It might slow the run by a few hours because of resting/chip farming. I don't think it's that hard to do a middle-difficulty run just before, though.
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Jaolen: that i'm honestly not sure about - the biggest problem is just spending some time farming around level 2-3 getting chips to level up
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Ryme: Another question, I guess, is if you DID a no-pulls run, would that put you into the range where it'd give you more foil for the next, and chaining them after that wouldn't be so hard?
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Ryme: Is it just getting over the barrier the first time, or does the math not work out so well even for several in a row?
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Jaolen: it's the barrier for the first time, if you stick with no-pulls, really
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Ryme: I think I can accept a one-time barrier. This might also be a point of strategy/discussion, to see how some of the other no-pulls players come up with that cash. I've tried to put some low-level jackpots in.
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Jaolen: you're talking 10 mettle by itself if you do no-pulls, even 3 foil is enough to alleviate the pain
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Jaolen: yeah, the main point is that while mettle/nocturne's seems to be something to completely remove the concept of lead-in runs, foil requires lead-ins
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Lxndr: retcon, and the perming of skills, have rendered electronic understanding almost totally useless. any thoughts on that?
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Ryme: Back to the question from "Lxndr": I would have thought there were enough robots in the low levels to still make Elec Und worth it?
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Jaolen: ryme: not when you can just perm charge, or firestorm, or something else to kill robots, i think was the point
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Lxndr: Right. EU is still useful if you have zero access to any non-class skill.
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Jaolen: since you're still only doing half damage w/ elec understanding
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Harry Dresden: Not every skill needs to be retcon-relevant. There are still a lot of players who don't do runs, or like being high level.
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PenguinPyro: Mind jab is fairly redundant in the face of lightning bolt.
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Ryme: well, there are always going to be new players, or psions in no-permed-skills runs.
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Ryme: and I think it's necessary to keep around for those cases.
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Lxndr: what keeps you from just making it the 2nd psion inherent, if we want to keep it around?
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Lxndr: for those minor cases
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Jaolen: electronic understanding is a lvl 11 skill to add to that
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Ryme: If it’s an inherent, then it’s basically just boosting all the psion skills, and isn’t worth much at all.
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Ryme: Except, I guess, that non-psions would never use psion skills.
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Jaolen: so with low level robots it's usually better to just use telekinesis anyways, even high-level robots, really
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PenguinPyro: Or just beat them to death.
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Ryme shrugs. Guess I don't have an answer for that right now.
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Ryme: Blackmatter asked about the King. It's on a pretty short list of things to do, but I need to do some specialty coding and just keep putting it off.
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Ryme: And StrLike asked about a beard zone, which is a meme I don't think I'm going to pander to. Because the other choice is I'd actually do one, and spend 3 weeks researching it, and then everyone would realize it's not that funny when implemented.
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Lxndr: thank you for a lack of a beard zone
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Lxndr: (though I would argue beards should be weak against electricity, electrolysis and all)
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Ryme: there'd be some running joke about a moustache put down for not being "full enough" and undercurrents of misogyny, and it'd be bad.
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Lxndr: a moustache transportation would lead to all sorts of 'moustache ride' jokes.
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Ryme: and if there's something this game needs, it's anything but that.
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Ryme: I will also go on record as saying gadgeteers do really have a second special ability.
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Ryme: It was coded so long ago it's either glossed over or it helps in cases that players don't put themselves into much.
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PenguinPyro: It seems to me that gadgies have a much easier time with retcon when I play
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PenguinPyro: Also, Ryme if I had to guess, would it be improved running away from fights ability?
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Ryme: you should try running away a few times and check the text, and see if that supports your theory.
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Lxndr: I still kinda suspect it's "increased computer interaction" which is rather difficult to spade (it seems, as it hasn't happened yet)
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Zillow: Computer interaction is semi-spaded
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Lxndr: random thought: I really love villains, but I have to wait quite some time in a given run to unlock them. Is there any way that unlocking could happen in an earlier zone?
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Ryme: Lx, we've actually talked about some ways to work villains in earlier. One possibility is being able to choose an arch-enemy at retcon, and you'd have increased chances of fighting them, and start with villains unlocked.
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Nommy: If there are going to be arch enemies, one of them needs to be an arch.
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Lxndr: This is an idea I completely support, as long as no archenemies are named 'the beard'
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Ryme: Ivanna would always stick around as a means of locking them again, or for those who want to finish the run first and then unlock them.
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Ryme: can an archenemy be named "the foot"?
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Ryme: or the bridge?
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Nommy: Only if it throws troll at you.
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Corrupt Shadow: Not if he's a rogue flatfoot
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Lxndr: clearly one of our archenemies will be "the Keystone"
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PenguinPyro: I don't know if this is the place of suggestions, but can we have a semi-customizable archenemy?
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PenguinPyro: Who adapts after every battle.
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PenguinPyro: Have to come up with new strategies every time.
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Ryme: customization is so difficult to do well.
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Corrupt Shadow: That sounds super code-extensive, PP.
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Lxndr: for retcon: can you split "ability to pull" and "ability to be buffed" into separate categories?
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Ryme: can? probably, with a lot of coding. I'm not sure I should, though. Pulls got lumped in with the rest of the "interact with the outside world"
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Ryme: It didn't seem to fit with any other restriction, and I didn't want yet another checkbox.
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Lxndr: if not, could the language at least be clarified? 'cause it's not clear at all currently.
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Ryme: I'll check the manual. But I think people pick up on it pretty quickly.
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The Utah Saint: Will there ever be time-control powers in this game? It doesn't have to be a hero skill- there could just be a villain with bullet-time or something.
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PenguinPyro: Utah Saint, there's an IotM that can send you back in time a few minutes.
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Ryme: I think Xentrium is all the time control we're likely to get.
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Ryme: Shoot we’re already 40 minutes in and we haven’t even started talking about leaderboards, mettle, etc.
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Ryme: That's been the pressing thing on my mind. Finding balance for the different retcon/mettle options.
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Ryme: Or determining if we're balanced enough as-is ...
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Lxndr: given her purported loyalty, can the night mare be a free pull?
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Ryme: Free pulls are for things that aren't useful. She's far from that.
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Ryme: The main schools of thought currently seem to be:
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Ryme: 1) recton's pretty balanced now
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Ryme: 2) free pulls trump everything far too much to the point of ruining the first three leaderboards
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Ryme: or 3) free pulls are maybe a touch powerful
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PenguinPyro: Ryme, I feel that the Naturally Hyper option is far superior to the decaf option.
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PenguinPyro: Most sugar nets you +1 hour at best
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Lxndr: yeah, naturally hyper should be +2 instead of +3
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Ryme: there's some important additions coming with sugar. If I said it was going to get a little more useful, might that mitigate that issue?
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Harry Dresden: All Items needs more than a 4 mettle penalty, for sure.
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Ryme: Harry's comment above isn't uncommon, but is often countered with something along the lines of "punishing people for having and using their things is mean"
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PenguinPyro: It's not mean if self-inflicted
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Ryme: And there's many options. One is limiting specific types of items, like squid discs.
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Ryme: Another might be to make the -4 become "many pulls" rather than "all pulls". Like 20-ish. So it's a lot, but not everything.
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Patojonas: raising the mettle penalty should be enough....
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Ryme: And then have a harder penalty on "all pulls"
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PenguinPyro: Ryme, how about everything non-consumable?
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Ryme: that's possible, too, but I can say from my KoL days it's pulling consumables that's really the biggest relief for me.
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Ryme: Of course their crafting of food is more complex than most of our caffeine.
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NardoLoopa: all-pulls cheapens a run to the point of making it a meaningless accomplishment.
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Ryme: What bothers me most is "all pulls" reaches through three of the four leaderboards. If it was just one, or maybe two, I'd feel better.
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PenguinPyro: Yeah, all-pulls makes everything ridiculously easy for those who know their equipment.
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Ryme: But coming from another angle, maybe it's the leaderboards themselves that are the sticking point.
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NardoLoopa: agreed. Though I also think there's a certain incompatibility in the various pull options and leaderboards.
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NardoLoopa: for example, in the current leaderboard situation, what is the top no-pull run?
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Ryme: hell if I know, NL. But that's why I said it bothers me when they reach into the 3rd bracket.
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Ryme: There have always been plans for more advanced boards, including filtering/searching specific types
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Ryme: But if the main brackets take a bit of a back seat compared to more dynamic boards, it may matter less.
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Ryme: You can compare your run to people who have identical runs, or nearly identical ones, for better competition.
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Ryme: The thing I don't want to lose is the bit of highlight that some default boards offer.
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Ryme: If everything's customizable, we've got ~300 different boards, and then it's difficult to have any sort of baseline or common field to acknowledge some of the great accomplishments.
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NardoLoopa: I think the static leaderboards should showcase the most different kinds of runs out there.
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NardoLoopa: that is, whatever makes runs the most different, should be the criterion that seperates boards.
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Ryme: I think I'd need to see a one-page thesis explaining that, Nardo, rather than one line. Feel free to extrapolate on the forums later.
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Ryme: Anyway, that's why I say I don't have answers. Still questioning things at this point.
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Corrupt Shadow: Ryme, do you really think the AH will remain a viable way to sell/auction anything?
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Ryme: AH needs some improvements, but I think it'll have niche uses. People who really want their item bid up to the highest value, or selling low-value items in bulk.
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Lxndr: Can one have a subscription to the AH, so they can be notified if something arrives?
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Ryme: I don't want to go with subscriptions.
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Corrupt Shadow: Maybe ditch the categories, and just go with a global auction house?
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Ryme: I think it also needs to just have everything put into one pool, instead of keeping the categorie... what you said.
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Ryme: But another fix may be making it work better with retcon restrictions, so stuff can be managed even in-run, like the mall.
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Ryme: We're running out of time. What other questions/comments are there?
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Patojonas: Do you have any ideas for a zone about the river that splits the city? Or the highway that also split the map?
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Ryme: never really thought about it. Early concepts for the game had a "direct traffic over the bridge" adventures in it.
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Corrupt Shadow: I think we need a subway quest... maybe a side-quest that stems off of a hole in the sewers???
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PenguinPyro: Question. Was it intended that welding items is nearly totally useless during a run?
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Ryme: Not at all, PP. Are they?
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PenguinPyro: I find there are better alternatives to most tritanium/titanium/c ryonite/pentium/plas teel items.
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PenguinPyro: Cavorite items are useful, but that's pretty late-game.
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Patojonas: not everything has to be about runs...
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Ryme: are we talking in no-pulls runs, Penguin?
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PenguinPyro: In limited-pulls runs.
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Ryme doesn't know enough about strategy...
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Ryme Also want to go on record for a couple of points:
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Ryme: 1) event starting at rollover this evening at rollover
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Ryme: 2) redundant is redundant
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Ryme: 3) I know things have been quiet this month, but I've beenw orking hard on an expansive pair of zones.
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Ryme: 4) We're also working on mall upgrades and some other smaller things. They all keep interrupting each other.
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Ryme: so hopefully you'll get a lot in a row, once the jam breaks free.
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Shiny: I have what I imagine is a very simple interfact request.
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Shiny: It'd be nice if you had a link to your garage when you bought transportation at the Used Car Lot.
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PenguinPyro: Seconded. There's similar links for computers and the black box.
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Ryme: Hm. There's probably a lot of points like that. I always worry they'll get out of control, but I also recognize the two-clicks for hideout things can be annoying.
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Corrupt Shadow wishes Passable Pilot were a permable skill.
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Ryme: Passable Pilot is also one of those intentional restrictions. Flying isn't supposed to be easy to come by.
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Ryme: Anything that replaces that knowledge has to be a serious sacrifice.
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PenguinPyro: I know it's not a problem for most people and won't be for a while, but what if we run out of things to buy in Nocturne's?
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Shiny: There are always consumables, PP
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Lxndr: ah yes: why can we sell the consumables from nocturnes, but not anything else? (I vote that nothing should be allowed to be sold)
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Ryme: Dunno, Penguin. Consumables, and those are tradeable, too, right?
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Ryme: Or do no-pulls runs so you can spend more.
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Ryme: selling consumables is sort of an intentional outlet for those extra mettle, mostly. Also a way for people who, say, can't donate, to invest time for chips.
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Ryme: If you're willing to do tough runs for mettle, maybe you can earn a few IotM while still retconning.
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Ryme doesn't know if it's possible, but he likes the theory
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Lxndr: so it's an indirect way of allowing mettle to be converted into silver stars?
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Ryme: stars, chips, whatever
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Ryme: Not just non-donators. I know any avid retconner is giving up "wealth" by retconning instead of farming. If some of that can be regained, it may help a bit.
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Ryme: anyway, we're over the normal time. I think I'm going to wrap things up now.
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Ryme: thanks to everyone for showing up and giving me a good grilling. Hope it was informative, and will lead to some good choices in the future.
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Ryme: If we make any big changes to retcon, it'll probably be in March-ish, as a sort of 6-month refinement.
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Ryme: Oh, and one last note
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Ryme: Harry Dresden is officially Head Mod these days. He's going to be the guy players should talk to if there are ever questions/complaints about other mods.
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Ryme: If you've got questions about Harry, you can ask me. But you're probably wrong.
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Ryme: Just wanted that to go on record somewhere.
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Ryme: Okay, g'night folks!
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