Psionic attacks and other robot related issues

[Muhandes]

This is based mostly on information collected by Doctor Mojo.

There seems to be some inconsistency with regards to psionic attacks and mechanical creatures.
First, not all mechanical creatures are immune to psionic attacks. Specifically the following do not seem to be immune:
Automaton
Clockwork mishmash
Elite guardian orb
Guardian orb
Hunter-killer drone
Killer-hunter drone
Mining machinery
Taser drone

Second, one would expect that when psionic attacks fail, the foe would also be immune to psychic damage. However this is not the case, and in general mechanical creatures take psychic damage just like any other foes.

Another inconsistency I noted is with regards to badly bent knife. I was expecting it to do damage against all mechanical foes. This is not the case with some foes, for instance silver strangler, killer-hunter drone. I do not have enough knives to do a through check on this.

[Harry Dresden]

Don't forget about the Electronic Understanding skill...that lets you use some of the Psion attacks against some robots after level 11.

[Ryme]

Don't forget about the Electronic Understanding skill...that lets you use some of the Psion attacks against some robots after level 11.

This. Most foes are "robots" and start out immune but become susceptible after Electronic Understanding. Some foes are positronic robots (like the computers) and never become susceptible.

The other psychic damage is a good point, but I've got issues with foes only being able to be immune to one thing right now. Plans are in the works to change that, though.

[Muhandes]

Don't forget about the Electronic Understanding skill...that lets you use some of the Psion attacks against some robots after level 11.

This. Most foes are "robots" and start out immune but become susceptible after Electronic Understanding. Some foes are positronic robots (like the computers) and never become susceptible.

The other psychic damage is a good point, but I've got issues with foes only being able to be immune to one thing right now. Plans are in the works to change that, though.

I just checked and indeed Elite guardian orb is immune. I suppose this stands for all the rest, I will have to check. Of course all the castle ones are only accessible at level 15 when you already have the Electronic Understanding skill.

What about the inconsistency with badly bent knife?

[Ryme]

What inconsistency would that be?

Or rather, your phrasing makes it seem as if you're asking about "inconsistency = something that's obviously an error" rather than "inconsistency = something that works differently depending on different situations but is completely intentional."

Your post seems to be pointing to the former, but my answer is that it's the latter.

[Corrupt Shadow]

Hehehehe @ Ryme's "tone of voice" ... (or at least how I read it to be).

[Muhandes]

What inconsistency would that be?

Or rather, your phrasing makes it seem as if you're asking about "inconsistency = something that's obviously an error" rather than "inconsistency = something that works differently depending on different situations but is completely intentional."

Your post seems to be pointing to the former, but my answer is that it's the latter.

So if I am understanding correctly, there is some other differential because of which badly bent knife works on some mechanical beings but not on others.

There seems to be a whole dichotomy of beings which we missed then. There are robots of two kinds (electronic and positronic), and for lack of a proper word, "weak" mechanical beings on which the knife works and "strong" ones on which it doesn't, which is independent of having an electronic or positronic brain. Not to mention the GigaGuy rapid boomerang which works on "metallic" beings (again, for lack of better word) which might and might not be the same.

I pointed this out since I thought there might be some inconsistency, but if you are saying that it is all intended then I guess we will have to figure out the exact parameters that differentiate beings.

[Ryme]

You're making this more complicated than it is. It's just "electronic" and "positronic". There's no other types. The knife just works on one of those two.

[Cristiona]

To be fair, from a narrative standpoint, it does seem odd that the hyper-advanced space robots are electronic while the Hive robots are positronic.

I understand from a "let's not screw Psions on the space station" standpoint, though.

[Ryme]

Unfortunately, that's entirely it. Though if you want to make up a justification, you can either pick:

1) they're evolved electronic robots that never diverged into positronics, so even though they're advanced, they're still susceptible

2) They're SO advanced as living beings they've fully developed the psyche that now makes them susceptible to psychic damage where they wouldn't have in some interim, less-advanced stage. (Our positronics would be like slime molds in their world, there's so much difference.)

Either works for me.

[Muhandes]

You're making this more complicated than it is. It's just "electronic" and "positronic". There's no other types. The knife just works on one of those two.

I'm sorry, maybe this is a thick day for me.
The knife works on a mochi vendor, an electronic robot. But it doesn't work on killer-hunter drone, hunter-killer drone and silver strangler, all three supposed to be electronic too.
I'm out of turns so I'll have to check this again tomorrow.

[Ryme]

"supposed"? Sez who?

[MagiNinjA]

Can't say about the strangler (can't remember exactly what it is), but drones generally have electricity, no?

[Ryme]

Not if they've got positrons, they don't.

Does nobody read Asimov anymore? I thought this would be downright intuitive as an upgrade to modern, normal robots.

[Olaf]

I read Asimov, and understand positronics (well, not actually understand, but you know what I mean), but I will agree it's a bit confusing. Ingame, there's really nothing telling you that some robots are not electronic, other than attacks not working. I suspect this issue will come up again in the future.

[Ryme]

Hrm. Between the skill description for Electronic Understanding and the general introduction to the technologies when you build computers, I'd figured it was covered well enough. Maybe we need a foes page in the manual.

[MagiNinjA]

Oh, I had no idea they were positronic. I just assumed "robot" meant the generic electric robot. I think that's where the issue lies.

[Olaf]

I'd never actually seen the Electronic Understanding description, and it does explain things fine, but you shouldn't expect everybody (or even most people) to have seen it. It probably /should/ be good enough for Psions/mind jab confusion, but there's still the knife. Also, EMP device.
Interestingly, though, it goes against what I know about positronics. They're closer to a 'mind' than electronic 'minds'.

As for the computers, all those show me is that there two different kinds of computers. One is just better and harder to get. :/

[Muhandes]

"supposed"? Sez who?

Now I am really confused. Wasn't it the answer to my first question, that the foes on the list I gave are electronic, and that's why mind jab works on them? The list includes Hunter-killer drone and Killer-hunter drone, so they are "supposed" to be electronic because they are not immune to mind jab once you get AU.

Mind you, I don't have a psion on the right level to check this, it's based on other people's data. I guess I'll have to level a psion to level 11 and check it myself.

[Ryme]

I think you'll find that they are not susceptible. From a level 40 Psion, using Mind Jab:

You reach out with your mind, trying to find another mind to connect with, but as far as you can tell there's nothing behind the mechanical shell. Without a mind to jab, you can't do anything.

That's why I asked who says they ARE susceptible, because it's not true.

[Muhandes]

Thanks, and sorry for the bother

[Ryme]

All the same, I think this illustrates things aren't quite as clear as I'd imagined. I'm going to change the psion attacks to better indicate what's going on.

You reach out with your mind, prying at your opponent. There's no mind behind the mechanical shell, but you can sense some hint of a pattern in the electronic device that confronts you. Unfortunately, you can't quite latch on to the electronics to do anything about it.

You reach out with your mind, trying to find another mind to connect with, but the positronic synapses of your opponent's brain are far too slippery for you to do anything. It's like they're running backwards, or in another dimension, or someplace where you simply can't reach them.

Maybe that will help clear things up a bit.