PvP? Questions and possible designing.

[MagiNinjA]

I'm a huge PvP buff in KoL because I think it's fun to have a competition between players that's relatively easy to catch up on (you have to work to do ascensions every couple of days to double pick flowers and stuff...but it's still possible to be at the top. In several years. >.>).

I think Ryme (may I call you Ross, dear sir? ) has mentioned somewhere that he wanted to eventually implement a PvP system. I'd love to help out, so if the system is based on winning several minis (or something. There has to be SOME kind of minigame based thing in turn-based MMORPGs, right?), I have some suggestions.

The minis should be VERY chaotic. Meaning that any new player could dominate well, given, say, a month, and an understanding of the PvP system.

However, a current player should not be subject to loss if the player is devoted. Hence the many "within the last month" suggestions I'm making.

Taken from KoL (real AND suggestions)
1) Fashion. Clearly does not require unreachable dedication to win. Attacker should win if a tie happens. Why? "You and your opponent both match in your fashionable suits, but the judges are impressed by your attacking stance."

2) Trophy. In this case, a merit badge mini. Not sure what happens in case of a tie.

3) Stats. Self explanatory. Just put a variance on the compared stats and bam.

4) Purity. Gotta balance those stat minis. This mini is questionable though.

5) A suggested mini. Elemental comparisons. Compares elemental resistance of course.

6) Consumption mini. Compares the number of foods AND drinks (I don't think it's a good idea to separate the two like in KoL) consumed in the last month.

A month would probably be 30 days.


ME! ALL ME! + DGW! For the most part.
1) Player Slayer. Compares the number of unique victories in the past month or so. Ties goto the attacker...maybe.

2) Perhaps add in just a randomly generated mini? Coin flip, possibly?

3) Just...possibly a comparison of the number of quests completed. This is very subject...having more quests that can relatively fit under two weeks seems too much.

4) This is mainly inspired by dead_guys_watch, but it's awesome. Exploration mini. Compares the number of unique visits to ingame locations (that require a turn, minus resting).

5) STOLEN FROM DGW AGAIN. Risk taking. This factors in your opponents level and stuff and compares difficulty scalings. As in, it compares whether you're choosing harder opponents to attack and such.


Now, outside of the battle is the war...
1) Calvinball. This is originally Hogulus' idea, but it ROCKS. There is a special item that can ONLY be transferred by winning in PvP. It can confer some sort of bonus, I suppose. Your "hippy stone" cannot be repaired while in your possession too.

2) Limited number of attacks per day of course. Increasable or not, possibly.

3) Penalties for losing on attack. Maybe defense. If you get KO'd you should receive some kind of beaten up penalty.

4) A hippy stone-like mechanic! Of some sort.

TBC...in later posts.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

[Ryme]

I had a PvP thread somewhere. Maybe it got lost with the old forums? Dunno.

PvP is something I've been putting off, because I keep hoping for a good idea (or a bunch of 'em). What I'd really like to do is have something where you actually play against other players in realtime. The two main problems are: 1) it's difficult to code that stuff and 2) there's all kinds of problems regarding lost connections versus intentionally disconnecting if you're losing, etc., that I really don't want to have to sort though.

But I still keep hoping I can come up with something different. I've found KoL's PvP system to be fairly unrewarding. Maybe it's simply that I've never dug in enough to really understand it, but I haven't felt much inclination either. I've done it a couple of times for a trophy, but even that seemed like a pain. I'm not saying their system is bad; just saying it doesn't do much for me. So this means I don't necessarily want to start with mini games and work back up, but rather want to start with the broadest questions and work down to the details.

So the first big question for me is:

Is it important if PvP relates to the rest of the game? In other words, is it important that the PvP process can affect your adventuring, leveling, and possibly even ascension? Or, if PvP was completely isolated (you enter an arena, and everything you do there stays there) would it still be fun?

The benefit of an essentially isolated PvP is that you could engage in it regardless of your ascension plans, and it doesn't matter if you're hardcore, softcore, casual, etc. You're still on an equal starting basis with everyone else.

The drawback is, of course, that it then wouldn't *help* your ascension progress if you wanted it to.

I think I'd like to have this answered first before going on with the next steps. Or maybe I just don't know what the next step is yet, but I'd still like to know this.

[MagiNinjA]

I am a diamond so I guess I am kind of biased towards the diamond point of view.

I totally can relate. ;D

Hey, don't leave me out too!

I'm a diamond too.

Agreed, Ryme. KoL's PvP system isn't very...dangerous, per se. It doesn't really give any feeling of accomplishment or loss (and thus a desire to get better), and that's what I wish to hit on.

And getting beaten up should only come from being KO'd, which, in the KoL system, rarely happens as often as I feel you think it does. And even then, maybe only for the attacker. But then that doesn't allow for some grieving.

My feeling is that PvP shouldn't be required to ascend, but something like WoW's PvP system (special items exclusive to PvP, like semi rares after 100 wins or something, or (TANGENT) maybe 5000 rank increased total, if we were basing it on KoL's system) sounds nice. I don't know how that works, but I'll see if I can look it up sometime.

The thing with PvP, to get all players hooked, is that there has to be a strong sense of continuing to do it. Of course, there are some (dare I say) wimps who will never touch PvP given a million nudges, but really, what game doesn't have that?

[Cristiona]

I would support optional PvP, ala most MUDs. That is, actual player vs. player combat. The biggest problem with porting that over, is that MUDs are real-time, and this is combat turn based. Then again, I suppose the game could just factor... um... various... er... factors... and automate the whole combat. I don't much care for that, though; I like both players needing to be on at the same time.

Losing should give you a special beaten-up effect, make you lose XP, and probably lose chips, too. And, if you have The Special PvP Item, you risk losing that, too.

And if someone deadheads in the middle, then they're in trouble. In MUDs, if you could log back in fast enough, you might be able to salvage the combat, otherwise you died. It's just one of the things that adds actual risk to PvP.

[MagiNinjA]

Hehe, I like the ideas you're bringing up Cristiona.

Major question to your suggestions though. For Ryme. Is this game supposed to be a "coffee break game" like KoL was supposed to be or is it dead serious like now? Or in the middle? I feel like you're aiming in the middle somewhere. It can get serious if you really want it to be. In that case, racing to logon is kinda...iffy. Especially for those with crappy schedules.

I think I can see a way to work that out though. If you gave like, an 18 hour period to "respond to the attack", that might fit around schedules much better. I know that I'd still be narrow given only 18 hours to respond to an attack.

[MagiNinjA]

I would suggest no game penalties, but only minor boons in case of win. It may seem that game becomes 'sissy', but I see one thing: games that impose great penalties when losing/leaving/etc get very frustrating, even if they give analogus rewards. Instead, games that do not penalize loss, but ther rewards for winning are limited, are much more popular.

So then impose some KIND of penalty but don't make it too drastic. Maybe introduce an NPC who "helps you up" or something. Having no penalties just...doesn't seem right either.

Agreed, but it gets boring after a while. I think going the KoL's way (you have to give up ascension to greatly increase chances) is a necessary evil .

Disagree. Greatly increase chances? Not as much as you think. And in fact, speedier ascensions are better for PvP than just staying in one class.

Otherwise, I'm content with everything else.

[Ryme]

Man, there's even more stuff to sort through here than in the IotM thread.

I wanna back up for a second, because I'm not sure that I explained myself properly with my bolded question way up there regarding my feelings on the amount of connected with the ascension game. (Or maybe I'm just not understanding the answers--that happens enough, too.)

I think part of what I find unsatisfying about KoL's PvP is the fact that it does affect the ascension game, but only by just a tiny bit. For me, that makes it feel like I'd have to put in a huge amount of time just in order to get an itty bitty bit of reward. A few stats here, an item there, or a flower in hardcore for a few extra turns if my liver isn't full. But to do that I've got to understand all kinds of mini games. Outfits. How the attacks work. Pursue different foods and drinks. Maybe even go out of my way for them. A ton of work for what's essentially a small reward if I'm good, and a whole bunch of penalties if I'm not good.

Making the system more integrated into the game seems to cause even more problems for me. First, something that was just optional now becomes required, so everyone has to learn it or be willing to be uncompetitive in ascension because they don't like PvP. Second, if there are more rewards (not just stats and the occasional turn booster, but also items, buffs, and who knows what) I've then got to be VERY careful as a game creator to make sure that this doesn't unbalance the game. Stuff that's useful for a level 11 character may be way too powerful for a level 5 character. For instance, if you get a "free" weapon at an early level, does that give you too much of an advantage? Or, if it doesn't give you that much of an advantage, is it worth getting at all? Stuff like that.

So that's why I'd personally lean towards having PvP being primarily a self-contained arena. That way I'm free to allow all kinds of rewards for playing well, as long as all of those rewards almost exclusively just benefit future PvP events. Being level 1 or level 11 might affect your chances to win or lose a particular match because of your current stats or whatever, but I don't have to worry if the rewards you get are unbalancing, because it would be based on your PvP status only. I think this actually leaves room for more potential fun. For instance, if you can steal items, but they're only PvP items, then you can't destroy someone's leaderboard ascension run, but it can still mess with their next PvP fight--that's fun for the griefers, but fair for the ascender who's a casual PvPer. Right?

I also thing a self-contained PvP system is more inviting to newbies. I wouldn't even go near my hippy stone for months because I thought "oh no, this could really mess me up if I'm bad!" Whereas if you can enter with impunity (other than what it might do to your PvP record, which of course doesn't exist when you start), I think it feels safer to dive into the waters. More beginners means more people becoming good at it, and ultimately (I think) makes for a better competition at all levels.

Does that make sense? Or am I just too out of touch with that particular contest to really understand what people like?

[Jesus]

That is exactly why I don't PvP in KoL.

But then, I don't PvP in KoL, so my opinion probably isn't worth that much.

[Cristiona]

Sounds like we need an arena.

Oh! Hey! How about an unlockable area in the Cannonball Tavern where you can get into drunken brawls with other players?

[IcyFreak]

I don't know if y'all have ever heard of Pokemon Crater? (Or something of the sort; my brother plays occasionally and I don't much care.) Essentially, their PvP system was to make each player choose an action, then when both have chosen, to display the other's choice and take the appropriate action. This fits better with a link cable Pokemon battle system, but since the TH battle format is similar to Pokemon, I sort of figured it'd work if you're doing real-time battles.

Then, continuing to treat it as a real combat, it'd take an adventure, and the winner would gain stats/chips/item(s) from the loser. This probably doesn't work much for griefing, since both players have to agree to the fight, but I'm not a club at heart (pun intended) and I don't know how to think like one.

[MagiNinjA]

By the way, I think I can speak as a primarily club. I've done enough PvPing to know about KoL's system. I think. Feng Shweez and Farchyld (top level PvPers in KoL) can probably account for me.

Also, if I'm not quoting you, Ryme, that means I actively agree.

I MAY come off as very dissenting for all I know, but please understand that I won't make a fuss over the final product. Thanks.

Man, there's even more stuff to sort through here than in the IotM thread.

>.> Sorry.

I think part of what I find unsatisfying about KoL's PvP is the fact that it does affect the ascension game, but only by just a tiny bit.

Very much agreed. Like, a lot.

Second, if there are more rewards (not just stats and the occasional turn booster, but also items, buffs, and who knows what) I've then got to be VERY careful as a game creator to make sure that this doesn't unbalance the game.

Scaling equipment?

For instance, if you can steal items, but they're only PvP items, then you can't destroy someone's leaderboard ascension run, but it can still mess with their next PvP fight--that's fun for the griefers, but fair for the ascender who's a casual PvPer. Right?

Well, griefers like to screw up ascension runs too, if they could in KoL. Which is at most dignity hits and rank boosting, if the ascender actively collects flowers.

and Gavisi, I don't play myst classes. D:

Continuing on...

PvP is probably going to have to use a system specifically made for it, but I would like to see something beyond just 7 minigames that are simply comparisons of statistics. I'll post more of my thoughts later.

I agree. I'm not so sure that it's ideal to allow real time play, because of said playerbase and scheduling and time zone hells. Perhaps it's an option with greater rewards, but otherwise, I don't see too much fun in real time.

IcyFreak's following of Pokemon Crater is probably closest to real time without being pure beat 'em up real time.

[Ryme]

Another thing that I've been thinking about: the ascension/role-playing portion of the game tends to assume that you as a player will be up for most challenges, and only occasionally lose and suffer a setback (being beaten up, etc.)

The PvP system is based on a premise that an average player loses about as often as they win, while a really good player still loses some (maybe a lot? I don't really know how much) and a beginner loses most of the time. For this to be balanced within an ascension setting, this means:

1) Winning needs to be more positive than losing is negative. Otherwise, the "average" PvPer is just breaking even by winning half the time. I don't think being better than half the players in a game should be a break-even proposition. It needs to be at least moderately rewarding.

And this then means:

2) Either penalties have to be fairly light (after all, if being beaten up a few times per day is considered a reasonable penalty for taking risks while adventuring, the sum total of PvP penalties shouldn't be any worse than that). Or rewards have to be powerful enough that even though the penalties are pretty stiff, the rewards still outmatch them.

Again, I'm not sure what that means in terms of specifics, but it seems like a piece of the framework that I want to work within.

[Cristiona]

Part of me thinks it should be the other way around, actually. Your "average" PvPer takes a beating, and only the really good ones thrive. That sets the barrier to entry pretty high, but from my clubby days on various MUDs leads me to believe that a situation like that would appeal to the hard-core clubs.

I don't think the combat system is balanced for a PvP kind of battle. I'm a level 15 Naturalist, and against a level 13 Psion, the battle would probably go "Trample of the Rhino, Trample of the Rhino, win."

Heh... "Stun Gas, Stun Gas, Stun Gas, Stun Grenade!"

Edit: This actually reminded me of something... in the MUD I would PvP in (Realms of Despair for all who care), it was straight up class-vs-class, just like when you were fighting a monster. Needless to say, certainly classes had huge advantages. Nobody complained about it, though. The PvPers just played that class.

Or they were freaking monsters and kicked ass as other classes.

[Ryme]

Part of me thinks it should be the other way around, actually. Your "average" PvPer takes a beating, and only the really good ones thrive. That sets the barrier to entry pretty high, but from my clubby days on various MUDs leads me to believe that a situation like that would appeal to the hard-core clubs.

All right. If that's the case, that means it's even more difficult to tie the system into the adventure/ascend part of the game. If only the top 10-25% are getting anything from it, why would anyone else want to touch it, if it was most likely to just "mess up" their other plans?

Hmm. Gotta keep thinking...

[Ryme]

Civilian, that's a darn good idea. I'd already been thinking about trying to split competition into ranks (probably by number of wins) so that experienced players and newbies didn't mix, but I really like the idea of also splitting it into "safe" and "dangerous" PvP. Sort of like the difference between dueling with padded sticks and dueling with real swords. Or between high-school wrestling and underground Tibetan razor-blade kickboxing.

Of course it complicates things, but I think it'd be appealing to players to have that choice. Certainly it would put *me* at ease about exploring the system.

[MagiNinjA]

Yes, dgw mentioned tiers in our talk, and it was a great idea.

*waves the implementation wand to magically conjure a PvP system*

...or not. >.>

[Cristiona]

I think part of it depends on how key "ascension" is going to be in Twilight Heroes. It's the core of KoL, so everything needs to be designed with it in mind. However, if TH is designed so that there are several paths one could take, and that ascension is but one facet, then integration is much less of a concern. If a bunch of powerlevelers want to get all crazy-go-nuts with PvP, then they can bash each other around as level 50 players. The guy who ascends every 15 levels won't even notice.

Even if PvP hurts, it can still be optional. A diamond/club type could run through ten speed runs, and then go level up and start smacking people around in PvP. PvP doesn't need to speed up ascension, and there's no real reason to make that the case. A hippy stone mechanic will keep anti-clubs from getting pounded on, and range restrictions (ie: can't attack anyone 5 levels lower than you) will keep griefing to a minimum.

Honestly, I think if you make a more aggressive PvP system, you'll have happy clubs. Think about all the clubs on the KoL forums who don't care if PvP fits into ascension. They want to beat people up, take their stuff, break what they can't take, and laugh about it. And then have someone do it right back to them.

And I wouldn't worry about newbs vs pros. There's no way to de-level yourself. Pros are going to get level creep no matter what they do. And since level is more important than stats, crazy KoL stunts (my Disco Bandit has a 12 Moxie but a 3000 Muscle and Myst!) are a non-issue.

Optimizers want tough, difficult choices. PvPers want a system that's unforgiving and brutal. KoL doesn't really have PvP.

[Cristiona]

Honestly, for hard core clubs, the act itself is sufficient reward. A played on one MUD where looting wasn't allowed, and most PvP took place in an arena. Why? Because the creator loved player v. player combat, but hated having people take all his stuff. XP and chips would be enough of a prize for the PvP system, unless the Trophy Item was introduced. It'd be the only thing that could be looted.

And, of course, if you have the Trophy, you can't fix your hippy-stone (or however you opt out).

[Cristiona]

Hm. Yeah, the opportunity cost is where my parallels break down. The only limitation in MUDs is the amount of time the player has; there's no turns.

Frankly, I'm at something of a loss on how it should be done. In KoL, I PvP'd a lot more once the adventure cost was removed, but I don't much care for having a separate counter. Personally, I would just make it cost a set amount of time. Maybe 10 minutes (regardless of +/- modifiers). That way, a dedicated PvPer could spend all day beating people up if they want.

What we need here are some hardcore clubs. I'm just a poseur

[MagiNinjA]

What we need here are some hardcore clubs. I'm just a poseur

HAI GUYZ. M AI LATE 2 PARTAY?

[Cristiona]

The theory was that PvP is an alternative way of spending your time. 10 minutes was largely pulled from thin air, but it was a way to make it expensive, but not overly so. It seemed a good balance between ridiculous amounts of fights, and creating a completely arbitrary counter (just what is the narrative justification for only having 10 fights in KoL?).

My thought for modifiers not making a difference was... um... well, there wasn't really one, exactly. It just seemed like a way to largely even things out across the board. After the first couple levels, everyone has access to Bray, so pretty much everybody is getting the same number of turns a day.

I guess the thought is that it mitigates the value of potential future items that increase efficiency, for instance, an IotM that removes 1 minute per turn.

[MagiNinjA]

Why not have reducing? There really isnt any justification for not having things reduce it.